THE BIG TAKEOVER # 48

2001

photos by Alyssa Scheinson

Our second interview with Jeff Martin of Idaho (the first, five -years ago, appeared in issue 40 - see back issues page to order) turned to be even more enjoyable than the first (which delved more into the history of the band). After being unfortunately absent from the tour rolls for a half-decade, the group’s recent nationwide jaunt in support of their new Hearts  of Palm LP presented a rare opportunity to not only interview Martin, but to rope in original guitarist and Martin’s longtime close friend John Berry as well. Berry, who spent part of the mid-‘90s drumming for Lifter, co-founded the group with Martin a decade ago. His distinct and evocative playing on their earliest, starkest, darkest, gloomier: records (1993’s The Palms EP and Year After Year debut) was sadly-missed for a few years (1994’s almost impenetrable This Way Out, more or less a Martin solo LP), until the group’s mainman finally found a replacement of equal acumen in Dan Seta.

Seta’s entrance, (along with drummer Terry Borden and bassist Mark Lewis), beginning on the 1995 The Bayonet EP and the band’s masterpiece album, 1996’s Three Sheets; to_: the Wind, completely rejuvenated and refreshed Martin’s recordings, even as the Idaho leader continued writing the lion’s share of-the songs. Martin’s rumbling/wailing baritone took on greater warmth and tension, exploring the underside of his melancholy and finding the more beautiful, more hopeful and solicitous side of it. One solo song accompanied only by piano, “Alive Again,” remains perhaps his most: gentle, most splendid touch, and the crescendo of the closing “Get You Back” remains a bone-shaking aural watershed.

The foursome that made those two records, Idaho’s zenith as a great, working band as opposed to Martin’s studio project, sadly-splintered amongst some rancor. But fortunately Seta stayed on. And his sympathetic help on the subsequent The Forbidden EP [1997], and the two most recent albums Alas [1998] and- Hearts Of Palm, showed him a perfect interpreter/foil for Martin’s slow but intensely powerful, dreamy but roaring, burbling but genuinely raw sound and style. While the group seemed more casual and relaxed on these works, with guest drummers such as current R.E.M, seat plugger Joey Waronker, the brooding sweetness of these LPs- showed the pair’s collaborations remained inspiring no matter what form Martin’s basic chamber spiritualism took.

But when a disagreement about tour commitment for the new LP led Martin to part with Seta before it began, he needed a replacement, and fast. With nowhere else to go, he turned to his old friend Berry. Berry was a natural choice under such duress, not only given his former membership, but also because he and his better half, Dale Stewart, had themselves released Hearts of Palm and a vintage live recording of the original, Berry-era Idaho, titled People Like Us Should Be Stopped-Live Volume One, on-their new label, Idahomusic. Most tiny record labels find it hard enough to market and distribute their releases, let alone get their recalcitrant, tortured artists to hit the road if they haven’t in so long. In Berry’s case, he not only took on the task of booking Idaho’s tour, but now he also surprisingly found himself on the stages of America again, to Martin’s direct left, playing his majestic lead parts and chipping in on the sampler triggers. Of course, at present Idahomusic only has one artist on its roster. But one might still credit Berry for overtime work beyond the call of duty insuring the success of his flagship act!

All kidding aside, it was a blast to see him on stage, back in his rightful place for the first time in seven years. And you can be sure we did not blow this unusual opportunity to interview the two old school chums/pals together on the road, here in New York City.

Martin was as we remembered him thoughtful, unbothered, and honest, willing to dissect his artistic processes and history. But Berry as comic humorist, we weren’t prepared for. Possessing a down to earth sense of humor, the latter added belly laughs to the proceedings, making this one of the more fun interviews we’ve run of late. Moreover, his presence and calming demeanor seemed to have a great affect on Martin. It’s very apparent how well they click together as familiar cronies and colleagues, and we had a blast just listening to them kibitz.

Hell, Berry didn’t even seem to mind our brief discussion of his once famous ‘60s dad, F-Troop TV star Ken Berry! See for yourself during the last portions of the below (where we also discover that Berry’s mom was the voice of a cartoon rock star everyone older than 30 will remember, and that Martin once dated another, even more famous TV sitcom star’s daughter! Oh, there’s lots of fun in this conversation...). Just looking at the son brings back a strong remembrance of his father in his role: a man constantly perplexed, bewildered, and befuddled as the maladroit, clueless, bungling fort commander in the post-Civil War Old West-along with visions of the Native American-parody Hakowe Indians, his dumb and dumber (or scheming/profiteering) men of the troop, and, most of all, the famous theme song, “Where Indian fights are colorful sights and nobody takes a lickin’/Where paleface and redskin both turn chicken!!!” Somewhere on TV Land they’re still showing the reruns, and it’s amazing how funny such ludicrous stupidity remains...

In any case, my thanks to both Martin and Berry, and our ace transcriber Mark Suppanz, who was kind enough to sit in on this interview as well, backstage at Knitting Factory before Idaho’s third New York appearance on this Heart of Palm tour. (Suppanz also added in a few questions.) Best of luck to a fine American veteran, an exquisite artist making music of his own personal conception, as he heads into his second decade. Though Berry will likely not be involved in future recordings, it was good to see him out there for those who missed the first go-round, and to get to know the co-big cheese of Idahomusic.

JR: [to John] So how did you end up back in the band? It seems to me that only a month ago, I didn’t know about any such thing! I thought Dan Seta was still in the band.

JOHN: It was quite sudden. I’m just like a traveling side musician.

JR: Traveling side musician? That makes you sound like some kind of circus freak! Do you swallow swords, or something like that?

JOHN: [laughing] I don’t like the analogy there, so no I don’t! No, I mean, I’m just filling in. I don’t want to make it sound like I’m “in the band” again, because I’m not.

JEFF: Yeah, John’s been sort of managing us, with his girlfriend Dale [Stewart], and he was the only obvious choice I had to fill in for the position. Because at the last minute a lot of things came to a head with Dan [Seta]. Dan and I had been... not necessarily growing apart-or maybe we had been, a little bit-but it seemed like Dan had a lot of problems with the tour, the way we were touring and how much we were going to be touring. He wasn’t going to be able to do the whole thing, and so there was no way we could continue on that way. So what it did was, it made us have to speak our minds, and talk about what we were unhappy with-with the band, and the way things were operating. I think we just had different ideas of what Idaho was. Dan has a real well-paying job now, and he’s married, and wants to buy a house. And he works in San Francisco for the most part, so he really didn’t have time to even rehearse or anything. So I thought, well, better just to start fresh, and it would be better for Dan not to go on the road with us. And he was unhappy about that, but I think he understands that he wouldn’t be happy out here for two months, with his new lifestyle. The thing with Dan has been a little uncomfortable, and we still have to talk about a lot of stuff. But he’s been reading some interviews lately, and he’s been feeling a little left out. So I just want to state that he was a very integral part of the band.

JR: Without question! He wrote my favorite song on Alas!

JEFF: Right, “Only in the Desert,” I remember your review. He definitely has his style, and he creates great stuff. He’s not a songwriter at all, but he comes up with neat parts and has a good sensibility. It was a fruitful relationship, though it definitely isn’t what makes the band Idaho. But I think, as with anyone I’ve worked with, it’s nice to have input from other people. It’s a contribution, and it’s important.

JR: Well, that’s true of pretty much any group where people actually contribute something other than just being backing musicians that you tell what to play.

JEFF: Right, and in Idaho that rarely happens. People come in, and I sort of let them do what they do best. Anyway, John is a natural choice to fill in on this tour. John and I started Idaho together, and John has a very musical touch-he can make a guitar do neat things-and no one else could do it. So it just made sense for him to step in. I think he was kind of terrified. He wasn’t “gnawing at the bit” to do it! Right?

JOHN: Well, the fantasy is always better. I mean, it would’ve been fun to play old songs, or how I remembered my version of Idaho to be, but this is totally different, having to learn the-l don’t know what you’d call the keyboard parts-but they’re so...

JEFF: They’re not connected with what you’re playing or what you’re hearing. He’s pushing buttons, and if stuff happens, it doesn’t really coincide with any physical movement of your hand. It’s like you’re starting a tape deck.

JOHN: Right-it’s not like you’re playing an instrument. It’s more like you’re operating a sound effect that happens at a certain moment.

JEFF: The way your brain was wired to play an instrument, it doesn’t really work for you. [John agrees]

JR: [to John] Well, you’re still playing guitar, so that hasn’t changed.

JOHN: Oh, yeah! Well, some songs are more fun to play. I mean, “Get You Back” is amazing, even though I’ve been accused of lifting Dan’s style.

JR: What else are you supposed to do if you’re taking someone’s place, playing songs already recorded?

JOHN: Well, I’m also playing a part. Just because he [Dan] played it with a screwdriver doesn’t mean that it’s not a part.

JEFF: Yeah, John’s been accused of stealing Dan’s screwdriver trick, which has become a funny item on our message board!  [at www.idahomusic.com]

JR: You actually listen to that garbage? [I would agree that most unmoderated message boards on the Internet are garbage, due to the many dolts who join just to post irrelevant, asinine, and sometimes crude messages. But the Idaho board is one of the rare exceptions, with many intelligent and interesting posts! Lots of true fans on there-MS]

JEFF: Oh, once in awhile you look at it, and it’s funny.

JOHN: Dan of all people accused me of stealing his best parts!

JR: That’s sounds petty. You’re supposed play his parts on this tour.

JOHN: That’s just silly. I mean... whatever. He’s probably just feeling as if I’ve moved in on his territory.

JEFF: [agrees] Yeah, it looks like that to him. But it isn’t true.

JR: [to John] Well, why not rejoin Idaho? It [the 1991-93 lineup] was the original vision of the group, and one many recall fondly. Why not become a permanent, collaborative member again?

JOHN: Idaho has been, at least what I think, 85% or more Jeff Martin anyway. I mean, Dan has been there, but it’s been Jeff’s band, since at least 1996 when Terry [Borden] and Mark [Lewis] left. It’s mostly Jeff’s stuff. Dan came in now and then, but Jeff spends weeks working on stuff. I mean, it’s not like the kind of situation where I could come in and say to Jeff, “Hey, let’s do the band.” Jeff has got his own musical agenda! [chuckles]

JEFF: Yeah, if I were to do something with John again, we’d probably call it something else, because what I’m doing now, my new record [Hearts of Palm] doesn’t even really represent Idaho. A lot of it was recorded in late 1998, early 1999, and I’m planning on going off on a different direction now-which wouldn’t have worked with Dan anyway, because he would have been on maybe two percent of it. I’m not going to be involving guitars as much. Idaho’s got to go somewhere else, and not because I’m making a conscious choice to change just for change’s sake. I feel it going away from its formula. Which works-it will still sound like Idaho-I’m just going to approach it differently. John and I actually did some stuff together; a project John had started called Starry, which sounds more like old Idaho.

JOHN: Yeah, and it’s still something I want to do, just to have a creative outlet. And I really like it. I would love for Jeff to play on it, but it’s not Idaho, and it wouldn’t even be really appropriate. It’s just different.

JEFF: John and I have known each other since we were 16, and to me he feels like a musical kindred spirit. He’s somebody I enjoy working with. And this record company idea will probably go on, and we’ll have this relationship with that.

JOHN: Well, that’s the hope! [laughs] Unless the whole thing flames out!

JR: [to Jeff] Until he takes all the money and goes to Guadalajara, right?

JOHN: That’s right, “Fuck you!” [loud laughter]

JEFF: Oh, boy! Don’t worry, I’ll find you!

JOHN: I’ll mail you postcards! [more laughter]

JEFF: I mean, I can imagine John conning into the studio and making some noise. He, like Dan, was always great at just picking up a guitar and coming up with some neat things, [joking] And with a computer, you can rape it for all it’s worth!

JOHN: Hey!!!

JEFF: I know, all this talk of sword-swallowing and raping and sodomizing...

JR: The readers will be appalled! [laughter]

JOHN: Thank God there’s such a thing as editing! [No luck there, smart guy!!!-MS]

MARK: In your last interview with Big Takeover, you talked about how you used ProTools, a computer program, to create some of the sounds you hear on the album. I was curious if that was difficult to bring to a live show? Especially for John, who is coming in and learning to play the new material?

JEFF: It’s difficult in a way, but you don’t have to bring everything to the live show. You simplify it. The parts that were created in ProTools, in theory, you can make samples of. Because I believe that if it was made in ProTools... For example, if it was just Dan shaking the whammy bar, and getting feedback, and this beautiful four seconds happens, and I take it and lower the pitch an octave, and then reverse it, and then take him pulling out his chord and have a funny harmonic pop off, and doubling it and twisting it around-there’s no way that’s gonna happen live! So you would put that in the sampler, and let it happen.

JR: [joking] What, you can’t make that happen live?

JEFF: [laughing] Sure you can! But it will happen once!!!

JR: Well, to be fair, Idaho is still very much a live group, the one that I’ve seen the last two nights. You have a drummer, a bassist, a guitarist-l mean, there’s a certain amount of samples that you use, but they’re more of an augmentation device, you barely notice them since the thrust of the band and the sounds it makes are all being made by the musicians. Watching the live show, there’s not a feeling I get where I’m thinking, “There are things I hear on the album that I’m not hearing live.”

JEFF: And there are some bands that really rely on that [The Doves, for one]. So yeah, it is a live band. The band you’re seeing live, doesn’t reflect the record in the sense that none of these people played on the record, and we didn’t have a real band identity. So we’re sort of using these songs as models, learning the parts, and playing. I think that there was a time, in 1996 [circa the masterful Three Sheets to the Wind], when Idaho was a band, just for a little while. And there were many problems with that, such as personality problems, but there also was an ability for all of us to mesh together and play as one unit. This [current] band has yet to discover that. I’m not saying that it’s not happening, but this band is still very fresh, very new. I mean, John jumped in not even a month ago from today, without having touched a guitar in years. And since Dan is not playing with us, we took perhaps 10-12 songs out of the repertoire, just because he and I were playing the parts-although John learned a couple of them.

JR: What are some of the songs we’re missing as a result of Dan’s departure?

JEFF: For example, from Three Sheets, songs like “Pomegranate Bleeding” and “No One’s Watching.” Not very many more off that record. Mainly the later records, where it was mostly myself, with Dan coming in and working with me-stuff off the Forbidden EP, like “Goldenseal.”

JR: Yeah, I noticed you did two of that EP’s songs by yourself.

JEFF: Right, which I’m enjoying playing alone. It’s nice, and in the future, I could imagine just touring with three people, maybe Bryan [Kertenian] and John [Goldman, his current tour players], where John would do a lot of samples, and I’d bring a piano. Just scale it down a bit. We could still get really big, if we have to-I’d have to play bass, maybe. So getting back to the question, there are a few songs we don’t do because Dan is not around. But not enough to keep us from touring.

JR: Well, I saw the gigs you did with Dan and this same bass player you have on this tour, with a different drummer, last time you came to New York when Alas was released. And what I thought, watching these two recent shows, is that if you didn’t know it wasn’t the band that made the record, you’d have no way of figuring it out just from hearing the band live. It sounds like the same group that made the record!

JEFF: Well, everyone who we end up picking has the same sensibility. Brian is a very young drummer with not very much experience, but he’s...

JR: Not very much experience? He sounds great!

JEFF: He’s just a natural talent. He’s 22, and he’s only been playing drums a few years. We had to rein him in a little bit, because when I first met him, he was all over the place, with a lot of high-hat tricks. But he’s quickly learning how to play minimally, and, listening to Idaho, he’s appreciating how simple the drum parts are. Because I really am the drummer in Idaho-I mean, I use ProTools, but all the last few records have been me, and I can’t play drums for shit! But it sounds like I can, because on the records I move them around. So Brian’s figuring it out, and John [Goldman] is a very musical person. He writes his own wonderful music, and he can pretty much fall into the role. He toured with us in 1994, so he’s been around Idaho for the last seven years.

JR: When we interviewed you last time, you had a totally different band that played out on the West coast.

JEFF: Yeah, at that point it was Joey [Waronker, now in R.E.M.] on drums and Christy Schnabel, who was also in the bands Lotusland and Ugly Beauty. She’s an old friend, with a great voice, a very talented singer-she did backup, and samples.

JR: She’s on which record?

JEFF: She only really sings on the Shanti Project Collection [1999 benefit compilation for HIV/AIDS], on “The Sun is All There Is,” and “This Cloud We’re On” from Hearts of Palm. She also sang the parts [live] that Melissa Auf Der Maur sang on Alas. I really wanted Melissa to come sing on the new one, but she wasn’t available. She’s in the Smashing Pumpkins now [who played their last show in Chicago right around the time of this interview].

JR: So who was behind the live album [People Like Us Should Be Stopped, recorded in 1993, released in 2000] with the old John Berry lineup, then? Was that your doing, John? Was that a tape you had lying around?

JOHN: No, we just happened to know that that show had been taped by somebody in a band called The Lemon Merchants, I think.

JEFF: Yeah. We knew that somebody had recorded it, and nobody had ever recorded that lineup.

JOHN: And they contacted Jeff a few years ago, and then Jeff lost the e-mail, and we really wanted to hear it!

JEFF: And they disappeared on me a few times too, there was some fishy stuff going on! But it was the only account of that lineup out there!

JOHN: But we found it, and we listened to it, and we had talked about doing something like that [releasing a live LP].

JEFF: There was a certain power to that lineup, and those times of our lives-l don’t think we knew any better. But there was this rage that happened.

JOHN: It’s like watching a car accident, I think. That’s how I felt about it. It was released more because it was a document of a certain time, rather than for the music itself.

JEFF: It’s mostly for fans, because fans love it. I even listen to some of it, and think, “This is atrocious, it sounds like you blew up a toaster or something!”

JR: “It sounds like you blew up a toaster?!?” [loud laughter] Jesus! You could be a rock journalist! I’m sure they’re looking for guys down at the LA. Weekly! You can review all the CDs that come in, with an imagination like that!

JEFF: Send them my way! But yeah, I think it was worth putting out.

JR: For instance, Idaho has worked with a drummer from The Swans...

JOHN: I love The Swans.

JR: Remember the original records they made that were really dirge-like?

JOHN: Uh-huh. I love Cop [Swans second LP, from 1984]! JR: Think of Filth [first LP, from 1983]. There was a review of that in a fanzine here called Flesh & Bones, and the writer Jeffo said it sounded “like two brontosauruses having sex!” [loud laughter] That was one of the most accurate reviews I’ve ever read! If you ever heard the Swans, you realize it’s true. It sounded like some gigantic earth-moving experience, that’s for sure!

JEFF: So crude, yet profound!

JOHN: I like that stuff, though. I thought it was very cathartic. I would list them as an influence. We had tracked down Vinnie Signorelli, who had been the drummer for The Swans for a little while. He’s the drum­mer on a couple of things on our first record, Year After Year.

JEFF: John just found him, and somehow tracked him down.

JEFF: John [Berry] played a lot of drums [on Year After Year].

JOHN: Jeff Zimmitti was a drummer. Love him. He did the drums on [This Way Oufs] “Forever,” I think they were amazing.

JR: Well, the live album was interesting to me, because I had never seen that lineup. The first time I saw the group was at Gibson’s in Tempe, AZ, on the Cranes tour. That must’ve been summer of ‘95.

JEFF: Oh, you were there?!? Yeah, John was sort of freshly gone by then. Well, maybe a year, year-and-a-half.

JR: Did you think you guys would still be playing together, nine years later, in the same band? [both give an emphatic “no!”] You have five albums now, Jeff, right?

JEFF: Five albums, some EPs, and a live record. And a whole shit-load of unreleased stuff that could be great if I went in and fixed it up a little bit. But it would just take a lot of time. But I like looking ahead, and moving in that direction. We’ll see, someday if I can get organized in my life-which is a big goal of mine now, to clean out closets and document things. I’ll get back to it. But I’m such a perfectionist that I would listen to it, and I would find something wrong with it, and I wouldn’t want to go fix it. But there’s some neat songs there. There’s as many [unreleased] songs as released ones.

JR: [to John] He’ll make you do it!

JOHN: [flatly] Oh no! Not after all this!

JR: Had enough?

JOHN: No, it’s not that-although I’ll look forward to a month off, or something! It’s just been a little overwhelming, ever since we decided to start a label. There’s a lot more footwork involved than I had realized.

JR: [kidding] Yeah, you’ve got these pesky magazine editors chasing you for ads, right? [laughs] At least one, anyway!

JOHN: No, I was e-mailing you about the info, [looking through the magazine] The Black Watch! We’re on the bill with them, for their show in Athens, GA. He’s [John Andrew Fredrick, singer] trying to get me to play with them in Athens, he’s a friend of mine.

JR: I know the feeling. I’m actually playing drums with them, next month at Luna Lounge and Arlene’s Grocery. My band Springhouse’s bass player [Larry Heineman] is in on it too, we’re their New York rhythm section. I thought you guys were headed to Europe?

JEFF: After that. We’re not headed to Europe for a month.

JOHN: We go to Chicago, Milwaukee, and Cleveland, and then Athens and Atlanta.

JR: Wow, you’re really promoting your new album.

JOHN: [laughs] We’re trying!

JR: I thought this was just another hit-and-run East coast jaunt!

JEFF: I have to break through that, because that sucks. Idaho hasn’t played more than two shows in a row for four or five years, and I’ve got to get to the point where we’ve played 20 shows, and I can get on stage and really be as good as I know we can be. You’ve got to keep playing shows, one after the other, to get over stage fright, and sometimes my voice doesn’t open up for a few songs. I’m sick of doing all this work, playing three shows, and then stopping for a year.

JOHN: [to Jeff] Yeah, you played four shows in 1998, and you hadn’t played any in two years up until then. And then another two years went by! I felt like I was twisting his arm to get him to go out again!

JEFF: John really was the one fueling the fire.

JR: The label guy is the one that has to do that! Well, you’ve obviously recorded for other labels until now-Caroline and Buzz. And now the onus is on you to be a label all your own. You have to take over all the duties, including promotion.

JEFF: There’s a lot of stuff. John and Dale do most of it. It’s fun-l mean, it’s fun for me, to watch it happen!

JOHN: [laughing, sarcastically] It’s fun for Jeff!

JR: He shows up and says, “Where’s my royalty check?”

JOHN: Not yet! But he will.

JEFF: No, but it’s an adventure. We don’t have record labels knocking on our door, so I thought, ‘Why not just do it ourselves?’ John and Dale, between them, seem to have the knack; they have what it takes to get to the right people.

JOHN: It’s called stupid tenacity!

JR: It seems like we’re going to see more and more bands, who’ve built up at least a small name recording for established indie and major labels, just say, “Forget it, I can just do this myself now, or my friends can.”

JOHN: I think that the term “Do It Yourself” has a weird sound to it, but that’s what this is, and it’s just because nobody would even book this band. I went to Billions, I went to Flower, I tried to get Aero-booking out of Seattle...

JR: So you booked this tour yourself?

JOHN: Oh, yeah. We’ve done everything!

JR: How’d you do such a good job?

JOHN: [emphatically] Dale!!! [laughter]

JR: Typically, when bands book themselves, they end up putting themselves into some inappropriate clubs without knowing. How are you going to know where to play, if you’re 3,000 miles away?

JEFF: Word of mouth, Internet, what other bands have played there.

JOHN: Websites like Pollster [www.pollstar.com].

JR: So you put in a lot of effort, then.

JOHN: Oh, yeah, a lot of research! I’m very obsessive.

JEFF: John and Dale work, like, 19 hour days!

JR: Heck, even being booked by William Morris, we played two or three shows [out of 100] where I hated the clubs. Club Rock in Las Vegas, for example. [Otherwise Springhouse was very spoiled by our agent’s fabulous work.]

JOHN: I never heard of Club Rock!

JR: That’s exactly the point! [laughter]

JEFF: We also had a good booking agent before, and we were also playing inappropriate places. But I think this works better.

JOHN: Well, a lot of places we just know, because we’ve been around.

JR: But if I just throw a name out, like Detroit, where do you play?

JOHN: The Shelter. Been there, in 1996.

JEFF: John toured with the band Lifter that was on Interscope. He wasn’t in the band, he was their road manager.

JOHN: No, I was in Lifter, I was the drummer! Hey! Anyway, I played at Pine Knob with Tori Amos and Alanis Morissette! It was weird, because they [Lifter] were a huge band on MP3.com, and they [MP3.com] submitted like 20 bands to Tori and Alanis, and we just happened to be one of four picked! It was a lot of fun.

JR: So how many people were there? 7,000?

JOHN: It wasn’t full yet, I would say 3,500.

JR: Is that the biggest crowd you ever played for?

JOHN: No, I think the biggest would have been Minneapolis, at the Target Center. The doors were open before we went on, so... I don’t know how many people that place holds, but it was about 75% full.

JR: That’s got to be about 14,000, because that’s a hockey and basketball arena, [changing subject] So, is your Dad still alive, John? [referring to Ken Berry, sitcom actor on shows such as F-Troop, where he played the bumbling fort commander, Captain Palmate, and Mama’s Family] [Yes] How old is he now?

JOHN: He’ll be 67 on November 3.

JR: He must’ve done movies in addition to TV, right?

JOHN: A couple. JR: Any worth mentioning?

JOHN: [chuckling] Yes. Herbie Rides Again\\\ [uproarious laughter] [Actually, Ken Berry’s movie listing on the Internet Movie Database is surprisingly sparse-his work has been primarily in sitcoms and; few TV movies-MS]

JR: I told John that my four favorite shows growing up were Get Smart, F-Troop, Odd Couple, and Hogan’s Heroes [later AlI in the Family]. My entire sense of humor [such as it is] comes from those our shows! The more bizarre and the more connected to U.S. history and culture, the more I liked it! Cold War spoofs, Indian Wars spoofs, WWII concentration camp spoofs... and two divorced men sharing an apartment, driving each other crazy! What more do you need in life?

JOHN: It’s like ‘60s slapstick, almost.

JR: I think I watched every episode at least two or three times.

JOHN: Really? I must’ve watched a lot of it, too. I wasn’t a huge fan, but I watched it a lot, so I must’ve been accepting it!

JR: Nice going,  Dad!  Larry Storch’s  [F-Troop’s Corporal Agarn] appearance on Get Smart as a Groovy Guru is really famous in Australia. Australian bands used to make reference to that all the time see Hoodoo Gurus’ “Let’s All Turn On”]! His [Storch’s] character was a DJ that was going to poison the minds of the youth culture of America playing something like “suicide music!” Did your Dad encourage you in your career as a musician? Was it like one creative guy to another?

JOHN: Not really. He just wanted me... not to be a fuck-up! And hat’s exactly what I did! [laughs]

JR: Don’t laugh, I was watching the bio on Mackenzie Phillips [child actress from One Day at a Time and daughter of Mamas & the Papas stars]. I mean, going out with Peter Asher when you were 16?!? The guy was 40 or so, he was in Peter & Gordon in the ‘60s! The offspring of the Hollywood famous are often so screwed up.

JOHN: Actually, not to leave her out, my Mom had a very nice career too. She was a character actress, her name was Jackie Joseph. She was in the original Little Shop of Horrors. She played Audrey. She was also in a bunch of films, like Gremlins and Police Academy. She’s actually had a cooler career than my Dad, just lesser known. She was he also the voice of the drummer [Melody] in Josie & the Pussycats!

JR: Wow, there’s a rock and roll reference! [John laughs] You know my friend Bobby [Schayer] from Bad Religion? His mother was in Blue Hawaii with Elvis Presley, and in the Cheech & Chong movies like Up in Smoke. And whenever you ask him, “Who did she play in these movies?” he always says, “The Mexican!!!” [laughter] His father was a cop in Hollywood, whose job it was to arrest Lenny Bruce, even though he [Schayer’s dad] liked his act. He would say, Just doing my job!” And Bruce said he wanted to have Bobby’s dad arrest him. He requested him! Well, you never know what you get from the underground rock sons and daughters of Hollywood people! But isn’t that how you met Jeff, though, because you were going to schools in a much nicer area of L.A. than most people?

JOHN: Well, it was just more of a private school, it wasn’t that it was a nicer area. His school was in Santa Monica, and our schools would play each other in sports. We actually both ran track against each, although we didn’t know it at the time.

JEFF: The amusing thing is that when I met John... [to John] Do we want to tell this story, or is it too embarrassing?

JOHN: [joking] Oh, yeah! But you can tell it!

JEFF: [to John] Maybe you better tell it, because I’ll fuck it all up!

JOHN: I’d been playing in rock cover bands with Chris Owens, who is [old TV show Laugh In announcer] Gary Owens’ son, and Chris had this idea-he started getting very cuckoo-of starting a band with Hollywood kids. He was about 16 or 17, and he just thought it would make a good selling point. This was his baby. Anyway, with Chris trying to do that, he sort of discovered Jeff, and that band fizzled, but Jeff and I became friends.

JEFF: I had gone to the prom with Ed Asner’s daughter Katie! [Ed Asner was TV’s Lou Grant, from the Mary Tyler Moore and Lou Grant shows, and Broadway actor from plays such as Born Yesterday]

JR: Wow! Bizarre! Katie Asner! Yeah, and one of his sons I remember was in a punk rock band in the early ‘80s, back when that was more culturally despised! Anyway, we could go on this forever. Does everyone always ask you guys in interviews why you called your band Idaho?

JOHN: Actually, Mike Coulter, who was the Lifter singer, had a band called Iowa that was very slow, and very plodding. It was with Steve Hadley, the drummer of Acetone. That band [Iowa] was defunct, so I asked Mike if I could use the name Iowa, and he said, “Well, why don’t you just call the band Idaho?” [laughter]

JR: And have you played there yet?

JEFF: Yes, we played in Idaho. We’ve played in Moscow and Boise. We played with John in the early days, and then we played again 0/ith Terry, Mark, and Dan.

JR: I was talking with Joey Shithead [Keithley] of D.O.A. about those awful old bands, Chicago and Boston and Kansas, we were making fun of them, and he said there’s now a new, popular Canadian band called Toronto!!!! That just sounds so bad!!!

JEFF: Doesn’t that sound horrible?!?

JOHN: There’s also an Oregon.

JR: No really: [mimicking an announcer] “Ladies and gentlemen... Toronto!!!!!!!” [loud laughter] And believe it or not, two weeks ago I actually passed Fountains of Wayne.

JOHN: [confused] Passed them?!?

JR: Passed it. The business. In Wayne, NJ, where my brother lives, there’s a business called Fountains of Wayne. They sell fountains! It’s like something you’d see on David Letterman.

JR: No, that’s where Fountains of Wayne got the name. You know, when you’re trying to think of a band name, everyone goes “I don’t know,” and then all of a sudden everyone starts calling out everything their eyes see around them. “Oh, yeah, how about Joe’s Pizza!?”

JOHN: Well, that was part of naming us. That it was just such a stupid... that did play into calling it. [stops] I don’t want to go any further because I don’t want to get Jeff into trouble! [laughs] I don’t want to bag on the state!

JEFF: It’s just a band name!

JR: Or a bad name?

JOHN: Ohhhh!!!!!!! Wanna come over here and say that? [They fight. Jack is killed in the fight. Don King demands a rematch, anyway. Mark takes over Big Takeover, propping up Jack’s corpse at his old computer, since he never moved from there much, anyway, and insists that, despite being “technically deceased,” and otherwise “metaphysically challenged,” Jack is still the “Co-Executive Editor,” along with Jack’s cat Mina. John Berry takes over as reviews editor, with his sly references to exploding toasters. Jeff defies Don King, and announces his next bout will be with Dan Seta, and a bus-full of prospective Idaho drummers. Katie Asner is hired as the round sign girl, in a red, white and blue bikini. The interview itself is called a draw, on account of the tape running out...]